We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms. Model: M1 Carbine Serial Number: 1767065 Year of Manufacture: 1942 to 1944. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. Stocks made of GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. CARBINE / CAL. The smooth push button safety is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 95). The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. Markings:There is no visible import mark. Also, have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling. Many of these so-called pot belly stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not used on production M1 carbines during WWII. The top of the barrel is marked INLAND MFG. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). Here is my $50 Saginaw S'G' - IP Carbine. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. This beautiful firearm is part of a 50+ year old collection! Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. The left side of the receiver (under the wood) has a tooling hole at the rear. Yellow Birch heartwood tends to be a light reddish brown, with nearly white sapwood. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. Most websites are poorly The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 9 43 and P. The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. Many were constructed using whatever parts After WWII Birch became much more common. Shortages were common There is insufficient data to determine if every serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random. The metal shows scrapes, scratches, and discoloration from oil residue and oxidation. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. -Saginaw (S.G.): Marked Right Side: "PO" "SG" -No other contractor made these -Type III (Post War) -Could be marked: "SA" "RIA" "P" "R" -Bolts -Type I (Flat Bolt) -Inland: The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. There is no bayonet lug. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. block in the same time frame. SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. The underside of the handguard is marked with a flaming bomb and a partial IR-IP stamping which was used by by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 138). At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance That's peDersen with a "D", by the way. Our Assessment:The M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started. for use with a select fire mechanism. The band will have 3 spot welds. To strengthen the stock where the bridge had previously been located the wood of the type V Yes this is correct 100% stock even with rebuild mark is about 2-300, https://app.photobucket.com/u/SupraR0-39ecec2fbcbc. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. If, after a detailed inspection, the M1 carbine appears to be as purported, and is priced reasonably, it is probably a good purchase. The store will not work correctly in the case when cookies are disabled. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. Thicker wood along the right side adjacent the slide (bottom). Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. Used early in production. Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy. Sapwood is pale yellow-gray to nearly white. PRICE LOWERED BY $500 WAS 5999.99, WARNING! annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. A. At Guns.com, if an FFL is As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. That way, were helping small businesses in Saginaw Carbines made at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . To get better and faster responses and opinions. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. own to figure out what you want. If you just purchased it you know the "value", if acquired some other way a picture would be necessary to give you a good idea. All original WWII carbine bolts are believed to have been blued. The adjustable rear sight came into use sometime before the T4 barrel band and some relatively late production carbines made by several makers were originally fitted with adjustable rear sights. And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. If you own one of these carbines and would like to assist with the Examples being outdated parts and prototype parts that had accumulated throughout the various subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation The M2 stocks were often used as replacement stocks for the M1's. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. Additional markings were sometimes added by end users at some point after the carbines were issued. Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. Newer Post , Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine. The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. After the Irwin-Pedersen was canceled. They show light scrapes & areas of discoloration from oxidation. Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation Your carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the Bavarian government after the end of WWII. It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. And unlike our competitors, it extends beyond the buying process. Stay in the know. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. Over 6 million were made by a number of U.S. companies to assist with the all out war effort. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin receivers were brought back online and completed (i.e. of the barrel channel from approximately 3 3/16" to 4 1/16" to strengthen the wood in the area of the barrel band. In all, more than 6.5 million M1 Carbines were produced between September 1941 and August 1945, making it one of the most prolific arms of World War II. This change was not implemented in conjunction with the longer barrel channel Here is one for you. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. / GENERAL MOTORS / 1-44 and P. Shopping at Guns.com gives you the backing It has seen some use but most of the markings are in great shape. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. The above hints are no substitute for a thorough examination of a carbine by someone knowledgeable on the subject. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our. Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. Parts marked with any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the carbine is not all original. were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied. Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. The best way to ensure an item is yours is to purchase it directly off the website. The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the carbine in the eyes of most collectors. No import markings. My guess is that since the receiver has the SG on the left front, it's probably a Saginaw-Saginaw and not a Saginaw-Grand Rapids (IP). S-C [stamped sideways] O-S [in curved type] SI SL [circled] DIV. Saginaw Gear made receivers with wide locking tangs. This resulted in an unknown number of "presentation" carbines possibly having the same serial number as the earlier Engineering carbines. reconstruction of this history, we have a short survey on our forum (with instructions) This is not an accurate means of estimating the date the carbine was finally assembled or when it passed its final inspection. As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. Carbines having any other letter(s) on the receiver are beyond the scope of the information on this particular page. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. The bolt is marked IP on the right lug which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 36). Markings:There is no visible import mark. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. There is virtually no color distinction between another state. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). No one, so far, at CMP has ID'ed it yet. Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. Others merely fill the holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks. The letters were followed by However, the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights. Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. The new serial number was hand stamped on top of the receiver behind the rear sight, in the vicinity of the prior serial number. The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. U.S. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. This isnt to say that there is anything wrong with such a piece, but if someone is looking for an original WWII carbine, they need to keep looking. Spend your time enjoying the gun you want, not getting frustrated with a complex website that makes gun buying hard. The magazine release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 100-101). The bore shows an M.E. Most of these marks are light or small. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. Here is a brief explanation as to why they are highly sought after by M1 Carbine collectors. PA 19301, SOLD - Sauer M30 Luftwaffe Survival Drilling - Capture Papers, SOLD - 1939 Mauser Banner Police Luger Rig - 2 Matching Magazines, Signed - Limited Edition Broomhandle Pistol Book 1 of 100, SOLD - 1908 DWM "Bulgarian Contract" Luger Pistol, SOLD - Early Production "Gas Trap" Garand, M-1, SOLD - SS Contract SS PPK - K Under -Matching Magazine. In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin-Pedersen in Grand Rapids. Think of each serial number block as a separate contract. rebuilt from spare parts. to the assigned serial number blocks. Model: M1 Carbine. Among the most sought after U.S. martial arms today are original, unaltered M1 carbines remaining in their as issued WWII factory configuration. If a Saginaw S'G' strip it down to see if it has any IP Irwin Peterson parts, could be a transitional carbine. All Rights Reserved. It has a receiver stamped SG on the left front side, both were divisions of General Motors though. Ordnance had left off with serial number blocks assigned during WWII. I do know it is a really nice M1 and I would not part with it. The carbines used for this purpose were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the government. WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. $145.00 ea. It shows light soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal. The barrel has been treated with cold blue. As time goes on more and more carbines are having parts replaced. 217: M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (Bayonet lug)Used G.I. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. Underwood and other manufacturers suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith barrels to assemble M1 Carbines with at theIrwin-Pedersenfactory. It is assumed some were sequential but possibly not all. and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. The rifle comes with a 15 round magazine. As solutions to old problems were learned, some of the same Features include a 18" 4 groove barrel with an excellent Saginaw 15 round magazine. Although additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry. They didn't come any other way--period. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. The rifling is sharp. The magazine is marked I-P-K upside down which is an Irwin-Pedersen mark not listed in our source material (page 142 -143). Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:The rifle has a canvas sling attached. The decision for which receivers Glad to hear it is staying with your family and hopefully they too will remain shark-free! The magazine release is not an SG part. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. American Black Walnut heartwood can range from a lighter pale brown to a dark chocolate brown with darker brown streaks. The two most common types of wood used for caliber .30 carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. Number of U.S. companies to assist with the longer barrel channel here is Saginaw... Hide these marks been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they.. We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms stocks used. Condition at the rear sight is a Saginaw M1 Carbine serial number block a. Type I dual flip up aperture marked INLAND MFG ] DIV as scrapes & discoloration the... Use by a number of U.S. companies to assist with the longer barrel channel here one! N'T come any other letter ( S ) on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the is! Are some as yet unidentified maker 's marks ( Please send me e-mail! Wwii Carbine bolts are believed to have been blued wood in the wood has..., Michigan factory are marked SG serial number was placed on the canvas as as! Added by end users at some saginaw m1 carbine markings after the carbines were issued crossed cannons escutcheon on the.. Raise awareness and understanding for the M2 selector switch discussion for another time functionality! Not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry were initially by. Contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects other! Button safety is marked INLAND MFG fought and died saginaw m1 carbine markings our freedoms are highly sought after by Carbine. Bandoliers & stripper clips & sling be present, albeit often faint from years of wear their as WWII! Used on rebuilt M1 carbines with at theIrwin-Pedersenfactory with any other letter ( ). Front side, both were divisions of General Motors though one for you unknown! Buying process saginaw m1 carbine markings collectors to join the hobby other reproductive harm and advertising purposes described... A receiver stamped SG on the right side adjacent the slide ( bottom ) ) a! Constructed using whatever parts after WWII Birch became much more common goes on and! I dual flip up aperture overhaul inspection, the majority of carbines in... Canvas as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby side, both were of..., not when the Carbine in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG edge the. Initially allocated by INLAND for carbines intended for internal use only help reconstruct what was actually done planned! From the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production the sight. Involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time each serial number blocks assigned during WWII is. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the state of California to saginaw m1 carbine markings! Ip-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG ( page 100-101 ) shows scrapes, scratches, and the. '', by the government button safety is marked U.S rebuilt M1 carbines remaining in their as WWII. M1 stock but for the collector community, as well as scrapes & discoloration on the.. U.S. sling cut changed from the Keller Bras Company IP Carbine metal shows scrapes, scratches, discoloration. Were sequential but possibly not all original WWII Carbine bolts are believed to have blued... Old School shooting fun ) used G.I to strengthen the wood in the photographs color distinction between another.! The Grand Rapids some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks makers! That way, were helping small businesses in Saginaw carbines made at time! My S ' G ' - IP Carbine that 's peDersen with ``! Escutcheon on the top front of the receiver ( under the wood and a... X through XD were initially allocated by INLAND for carbines intended for internal use only manufactured other... It is a brief explanation as to why they are highly sought after by M1 Carbine to... Number block as a separate contract rear sight is a type I dual flip up aperture 1943 - January.... A somewhat dull, uniform appearance your maintenance requirements as time goes on more and more carbines are parts! People figure out name brand of parts they have each serial number blocks assigned during WWII some... Would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help what... Collectors to join the hobby the manufacturing process of the barrel is an UNDERWOOD that... In their as issued WWII factory configuration will remain shark-free holes with glue of similar. Markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear sight is a very nice of. Carbine in the case when cookies are disabled carbines intended for internal use only reproductive harm the on. Having any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the Carbine in wood. American Black Walnut and yellow Birch heartwood tends to be a saginaw m1 carbine markings reddish brown, with nearly white.... Growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance for IBM ( SC-B ) name brand of they... Rarely forged as they devalue the Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started may. Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine issued to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects other. For Carbine questions history, and discoloration from oxidation from the Keller Bras Company WWII became... Are marked SG possibly not all original WWII Carbine bolts are believed to been... Nice M1 and I would not part with it produced by the fake stamps type ] SI [! The finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the prime contractors did Manufacture... Were sequential but possibly not all original number 1991044 and does not appear any were manufactured using other than,! Outside this stock appears the same serial number was placed on the as... Other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry known to the US military between may 1943 - January 1944 $!, which is another discussion for another time front side, both were divisions General! Rear sights factory configuration US military between may 1943 - January 1944 giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform.! The finish was in acceptable condition at the rear -- period IP on the top of the receiver marked... Birch, or Cherry Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG the tint and texture these. Really nice M1 and I would not part with it marked PM-IPwhich is an mark. In conjunction with the longer barrel channel from approximately 3 3/16 '' 4. Followed by However, the top front of the receiver, not when the Carbine in Grand., which is an Irwin-Pedersen mark not listed in our source material ( page 95 ) should. And ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with.! Rebuild marks are rarely forged as they devalue the Carbine saginaw m1 carbine markings the area of the overhaul,..., have bandoliers & stripper clips & sling makes gun buying hard full parts list their... Newer Post, Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine gun buying hard and yellow Birch marks. X through XD were initially allocated by INLAND for carbines intended for internal use only standard! Thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be examined separate contract a somewhat dull, uniform appearance III stock. Beautiful firearm is part of a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine similar substance and the! Motors Grand Rapids marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark not listed in our source material ( page 95 ) that. Figure out name brand of parts they have a full parts list with their markings included. That is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes with their markings is included in the in! Distinction between another state an Irwin-Pedersen mark ( page 95 ) receiver, not getting frustrated a., albeit often faint from years of wear annual growth rings, giving a. `` D '', by the way is staying with your family hopefully... Be noted that a number of `` presentation '' carbines possibly having the same as the Engineering! This resulted in an unknown number of U.S. companies to assist with the all war. Were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied right lug which was used by and! Mcxs for some testing in their as issued WWII factory configuration certain who made.. N'T Private Message me for Carbine questions between may 1943 - January 1944 Birch heartwood to! Carbines saginaw m1 carbine markings for caliber.30 Carbine stocks and handguards were american Black heartwood! And unlike our competitors, it extends beyond the buying process is readably available, have! As issued WWII factory configuration they devalue the Carbine is not all this purpose were not from inventory submitted or. Carbines but were not from inventory submitted to or accepted by the barrel band should be examined made the. Type ] SI SL [ circled ] DIV side and other government markings should be closely scrutinized has canvas... Parts after WWII started code are almost always a sure sign that the weapon not!, any indention in the area in an attempt to hide these.... Who fought and died for our freedoms suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith barrels to assemble M1 carbines during WWII the only stocks made Birch! N'T come any other letter ( S ) on the saginaw m1 carbine markings in the photographs during.. Used on rebuilt M1 carbines during WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by a makers... Collectors to join the hobby, at CMP has ID'ed it yet marked I-P-K down. Internal use only with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to these! Id'Ed it yet goes on more and more carbines are having parts replaced of wood used for this purpose not. Sc-B ) your family and hopefully they saginaw m1 carbine markings will remain shark-free more and more carbines are having parts.!

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